Trying to get better...

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sharkbaitffd
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Trying to get better...

Post by sharkbaitffd » Tue Nov 09, 2010 10:01 pm

All,

Still fairly new to this traditional thing I'm wondering what size groups (say at 20 yards) ya'll shoot. Also what is a distance you wont shoot over? I know it's all about getting as close as you can, but I'm just trying to gauge my skill and why am I missing the target once or twice every 50 shots...sorry just having a heck of a time tuning this thing and the sticks I'm kicking out of it. Anyway I've been through Fred Asbells book once (the second reading is in progress) and his video and practicing everyday. Maybe I should've just stuck with my "training wheels".

~Brandon~
Count it all joy, my brethren, when you meet various trials, for you know that the testing of your faith produces steadfastness. And let steadfastness have its full effect, that you may be perfect and complete, lacking in nothing.
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Re: Trying to get better...

Post by Night Wing » Tue Nov 09, 2010 10:27 pm

I don't worry about groups. I shoot one arrow, go retrieve it from the target and repeat. For me, the most important shot is the first one of the practice session, no matter if I'm shooting at 10, 15 or 20 yards. My target is getting a little holy so I put large pine cone where the hole is in the middle of the bag target and that is what I aim at. I don't take any shots over 20 yards. Most of my bow shots on live game are between 12-17 yards.
Blacktail TD Recurve: 66", 42# @ 30". Arrow: 32", 2212. PW: 75 Grains. AW: 421 Grains. SPD: 185 fps. GPP: 10.02
Blacktail TD Recurve: 66", 37# @ 30". Arrow: 32", 2212. PW: 75 Grains. AW: 421 Grains. SPD: 174 fps. GPP: 11.37

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Re: Trying to get better...

Post by Greywolf » Tue Nov 09, 2010 11:40 pm

3-15-5-20

These are yards from the target, start off with 3 yds, shoot at dots spaced 3 on top and the second row total of 6 shoot till your hitting with confidence, all arrows should group the same, 2-3 inch low by the line of sight.
then move back to 15 shoot the same sequence till your arrows are hitting well on each dot (might take a week or two don't get discouraged) move to 5 yrds same thing, then move back to 20 yds, this might take even longer
What your doing is teaching your untrained brain where to hold as you "Look" at the dot, the brain will make the adjustments on it's own don't help with Kentucky windage.

this training secession might take a month or two or even longer.

Once your confident then do walks backs start at the target, walk back 3-4 steps turn and shoot, walk 3-4 more turn and shoot, keep going till your out of arrows.

Your not going to become Howard Hill or Robin Hood over night or in a month or two. Takes plenty of Form practice and shooting.

Then, do as Night Wing said, shoot one arrow go get it. this makes you get all back to the form again.

Good luck you can do it. :dance:
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Re: Trying to get better...

Post by Curve1 » Wed Nov 10, 2010 1:05 am

Listen to what Nightwing and greywolf said....very important. I've been shooting for 35 years and my first arrow is what matters to me. I'l still practice at longer ranges ...say 35-40 yards, not that I'l be shooting at game that far. But what I concentrate on the most is out to 25 yards.
I also get close with 1 arrow and just shoot.....a lot. I like shooting longer distance, it makes the closer shots easier for me....but starting out like you are ,stay close for a while. But, no matter how long you've been shooting you always need to practice a lot.

One thing I would recomend is try different styles and use what works for you. I shoot sorta like Fred but without the swing/pull.
Some folks [like my son] will do better with a more settle-in-and -anchor style. Not tring to confuse you but I would use what style works the best for YOU. No matter what style you use though ,you need the basics [good form].

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Re: Trying to get better...

Post by jcporter@work » Wed Nov 10, 2010 7:34 am

I used to keep a bow hanging by the door of the shop and would just stop what I was doing and go shoot a single arrow, evaluate my form and maybe not shoot another for a few minutes and repeat. Unfortunately, the new house doesn't allow me to do that yet. Still have some work to do around the back yard. The main thing I had to work on was keeping both hands parallel and not torqueing the string. Also, don't use too big of a spot to aim at.
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Re: Trying to get better...

Post by sharkbaitffd » Wed Nov 10, 2010 9:28 am

All,

I do appreciate the advice and encouragement. I think I need to fine tune the arrows still and keep tinkering with the bow, AND nail form. I remember when I first loosed my some arrows with it I think I grouped two feet at 10 yards.... :eek: So I think I'm getting somewhere! I did manage to miss a doe the first day I hunted with my recurve...which is probably why I'm in this funk! Thanks guys...good hunting.
Count it all joy, my brethren, when you meet various trials, for you know that the testing of your faith produces steadfastness. And let steadfastness have its full effect, that you may be perfect and complete, lacking in nothing.
-James 1:2-4-

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Re: Trying to get better...

Post by Night Wing » Wed Nov 10, 2010 5:57 pm

This might help you. It a free downloable calculator program for tuning arrows to a bow. It works for me since it gives me a "tunable" arrow in about 15 minutes of time. I adjust my adding or subtracting point weight and also by adjusting up or down for the brace height. But, if you input the incorrect data in just one of the 14 boxes, it'll give you the wrong arrow.

http://heilakka.com/stumiller/
Blacktail TD Recurve: 66", 42# @ 30". Arrow: 32", 2212. PW: 75 Grains. AW: 421 Grains. SPD: 185 fps. GPP: 10.02
Blacktail TD Recurve: 66", 37# @ 30". Arrow: 32", 2212. PW: 75 Grains. AW: 421 Grains. SPD: 174 fps. GPP: 11.37

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Re: Trying to get better...

Post by sharkbaitffd » Wed Nov 10, 2010 8:05 pm

Nightwing,

Thanks for the link to the spine calculator...you wouldn't happen to know where I could find specs on the ABS arrows...i'll keep digging and see what comes up. Thanks again!


All,

Todays practice session went much better and I tried everyones suggestions. It was fun and I saw some real improvement :archer2: hehe. I even tried shooting from my knees... :dance:
Count it all joy, my brethren, when you meet various trials, for you know that the testing of your faith produces steadfastness. And let steadfastness have its full effect, that you may be perfect and complete, lacking in nothing.
-James 1:2-4-

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Re: Trying to get better...

Post by Greywolf » Fri Nov 12, 2010 3:00 am

Brandon, I thought abot you today as I stood in the back yard looking at where I wanted the arrow to go.

It was the best "feeling" one could have, this wasn't a practice secession, it was a contuniation of the deep love of shooting the bow. it just was

For you, you want to get "good", good enough to go hunting, or good enough to shoot with the "guys"
Next time your in the mood to go shoot, stand for a moment and connect with the "feeling" it'll change the way you shoot, look at things and what you do.

Look deep within
You never get a second chance to make a first good shot Greywolf

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Re: Trying to get better...

Post by Night Wing » Fri Nov 12, 2010 7:44 am

sharkbaitffd wrote:Nightwing,

Thanks for the link to the spine calculator...you wouldn't happen to know where I could find specs on the ABS arrows...i'll keep digging and see what comes up. Thanks again!
I've never heard of ABS arrows. If they're carbon arrows, someone else will have to help you.
Blacktail TD Recurve: 66", 42# @ 30". Arrow: 32", 2212. PW: 75 Grains. AW: 421 Grains. SPD: 185 fps. GPP: 10.02
Blacktail TD Recurve: 66", 37# @ 30". Arrow: 32", 2212. PW: 75 Grains. AW: 421 Grains. SPD: 174 fps. GPP: 11.37

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Re: Trying to get better...

Post by sharkbaitffd » Sun Nov 14, 2010 8:21 pm

Mark,

I've never looked at it that way...a sincere thank you.

Nightwing,

They're the Alaska Bowhunting carbons (grizzly sticks). I will keep looking....I'm thinking of trying wood though :eek:
Count it all joy, my brethren, when you meet various trials, for you know that the testing of your faith produces steadfastness. And let steadfastness have its full effect, that you may be perfect and complete, lacking in nothing.
-James 1:2-4-

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Re: Trying to get better...

Post by Night Wing » Mon Nov 15, 2010 7:27 am

Don't overlook aluminum. I've been shooting aluminum arrows for 46 years.
Blacktail TD Recurve: 66", 42# @ 30". Arrow: 32", 2212. PW: 75 Grains. AW: 421 Grains. SPD: 185 fps. GPP: 10.02
Blacktail TD Recurve: 66", 37# @ 30". Arrow: 32", 2212. PW: 75 Grains. AW: 421 Grains. SPD: 174 fps. GPP: 11.37

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Re: Trying to get better...

Post by Bounty Hunter » Mon Nov 15, 2010 8:48 am

I'm in agreement with what others have said, the first shot is the important shot!!!! The only time I shoot for groups is to impress people with the potential a set of shafts/arrows have for being consistance or accurate.

I limit my range on live targets to 20 yards and this is not because I feel I can't hit further, but it is where I feel my equipment will still deliver an effective strike. Past 20 yards there are many thing that can happen as well because your arrow is in the air a very long time. I do shoot further in 3D matches but a 3D target never moves (well I have shot some with a moving target) so you don't have to worry about how long it takes for your arrow to arrive at the target.

Why do you miss every now and then, well we all miss from time to time and don't let anyone tell you any different. I will normally start "Flinging" an arrow or two if I have shot too much during a given practice session without a break. That is why I try to limit my sessions to no more than 20-24 arrows before I take a break of 20-30 minutes. The least little change in any aspect of the shot makes a big difference on how consistance or accurate you shoot and when you get tired it is harder to maintain all aspects from shot to shot. Your main goal in practice is to train your body and brain for that first shot. You won't get a second or third (normally) at a game animal so the first one has to count. When you can walk out to the range, nock, shoot and hit what and where you want with that first arrow, you are ready.

As far as shafts go, I love my wood shafts! However as an Arrowsmith and someone that has been shooting for over 40 years I would not recommend wood shafts to someone starting out. I started with wood, but I had no choice at the time as there were no aluminum or carbon shafts available. There is a learning curve that goes with shooting wood shafts, and different woods will give you different things to worry about. There is not a wood shaft out there as perfectly straight or consistance as aluminum or carbon. So I generally recommend to folks just starting out to go with carbon shafts so they don't have to worry about their arrows. A good tapered shaft will also help with consistance shots as the tapering tends to take some of the little things we do different from shot to shot out of the picture.

Hope this has helped and good luck to you. Please stick with it and don't get frustrated.
Derek
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Re: Trying to get better...

Post by Curve1 » Mon Nov 15, 2010 10:24 am

I like whatever works for me. I do like wood a lot. Carbon would be fine if I find a carbon arrow that will work......I've shot a lot of aluminum over the years. Aluminum is actually the most consistent from shaft to shaft. I plan on getting a dozen of wood arrows in the future but I dont limit myself to just wood. It's just hard to beat a good wood arrow, but, good wood arrows is the key.
At deer killing range I think any of them will work fine.

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Re: Trying to get better...

Post by Bounty Hunter » Mon Nov 15, 2010 11:25 am

Curve1 wrote:At deer killing range I think any of them will work fine.
You are correct if they are good shafts and well built components. However I have seen some of the arrows folks use (wood, carbon and aluminum) that I would not personally use nor would I think they would be affective on a deer.
Curve1 wrote:Aluminum is actually the most consistent from shaft to shaft.
There was a time I would have agreed that aluminum shafts were the most consistent, but I'd have to say today top of the line carbons are the most consistent in all aspects of the shafts. That does not mean I'm putting down aluminum shafts in the least bit.
Curve1 wrote:I like whatever works for me.
This is the key to a sucessful archer and bowhunter, find what works best for you and stick with it. This goes back to the old saying "If it isn't broke, then don't fix it". Me I try new things all the time only because I build arrows for other people. When someone asks me about some product, I like to be able to answer them or give them my opinion, so I try a lot of things. I've been doing this a long time and can generally make any shaft fly from my bow with some work. If I can't get it to fly for me, then there is no way I can get it to fly for a customer.
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Re: Trying to get better...

Post by sharkbaitffd » Mon Nov 15, 2010 9:56 pm

All,

I've heard (probably from a thread around here) that it's tough for those starting out to tune arrows because they haven't developed their form. How do you know if you have enough form to start tuning arrows?? I was contemplating this pulling arrows out of my target today (and some out of the dirt). I've never asked this either...I'm shooting the A.B.S. Grizzlystick Alaskan cut to 29&1/2 with a 125 head out of a 50# Bear Grizzly (I draw 27+)....I swear they should be stiff, and I think they might be, but they bare shaft tuned slightly weak, nock left ( figured once the fletching was on it would stiffen up some more). Hmmmm :campfire:
Count it all joy, my brethren, when you meet various trials, for you know that the testing of your faith produces steadfastness. And let steadfastness have its full effect, that you may be perfect and complete, lacking in nothing.
-James 1:2-4-

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Re: Trying to get better...

Post by Curve1 » Tue Nov 16, 2010 1:01 am

I haven't fooled with carbon a whole lot...I know what will generally work out of the bows I shoot as far as wood and aluminum goes.
But , I have a question for some of you that have experience with carbo shafts.....Bountyhunter probably knows the answer to this.
I have a shaft my brother let me try the other day. I dont like my arrows longer than 29 inches, but this is a Beman 500 shaft cut to 29 1/2 inches, I put a 175 grain point on it.....shows to be stiff, I'm shooting a 46 lbs Lynn Harrelson r/d longbow with f/f string. I'm getting about 44-45 lbs out of the bow[ I draw 27 3/4 inches on this bow].
Like I said, some of you may be able to tell me if this arrow would be stiff for my setup...if I cut it down to 29 inches I know it will stiffen it up some. I know some of it [to a degree] is the shooter ...as far as release ect..
Thanks for any advice....I'm just curious.

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Re: Trying to get better...

Post by Bounty Hunter » Tue Nov 16, 2010 8:01 am

Guys I have some answers for you but I'm not sure they will be what you want to hear, other than both of you are on the right track. The type and make of the bow, type of string, draw weight and draw length all play a role in the tuning of an arrow, no matter what material the shaft is made of. When dealing with carbon shafts I have found that the Manufacture's spine rating systems very greatly. In other words all "500" shafts are not the same. You also have to deal with some of the manufactures like ABS, Goldtip and Quest that have weight ranges like 55-75 and of course there is Carbon Express with a completely different system. Then throw in your individual shooting style/form and what works for me, may or may not work for anyone else. That why I tell folks that I will give them recommendations of a starting point, but I can not tune their arrows for them.

Now I have very little experience with Beman shafts and absolutely none with ABS. Both of your thinking is correct based on the manufactures spine rating for these shafts. If it were me I would have thought the ABS shafts would have shown really stiff with a 125gr head and the Beman shafts really weak with 175gr heads. To explain why the were not, well you got me without me being able to see first hand. I do have an example of the differences between manufactures though. I build two dozen carbon arrows for myself this summer/fall that I planned to hunt with. The first set were Carbon Express Heritage 150s that I had picked out to build for myself. The second set were the new Quest Thumpers 55-75s that were provided to me for testing. From their manufacture spine ratings both of these shafts are compairable and should give me a very good Front of Center (FoC) once tuned. After bare shaft tuning both sets what I came up with was very different. The CX Heritage shafts ended up cut at 29" with 225gr heads for a slightly weak before fletching. The Quest Thumper shafts ended up cut at 28.5" with 200gr heads for the same slightly weak before fletching.

So guys just keep working at your tuning. Also be sure to tune with more than just one shaft. The reason for that is I have found one every now and then that had to be miss labeled or that is the only way I can explain it be super stiff or super weak compaired to the other 11 of a dozen. I like to at least use 2 or 3 shafts when bare shaft tuning. Good luck, and I'm sorry I couldn't be of more help.
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Re: Trying to get better...

Post by Night Wing » Tue Nov 16, 2010 8:11 am

Sharkbait,

I'm not a fan of bare shaft tuning. I find it frustrating and aggravating. :x I thought there had to be an easier way and someone finally came along and put this neat little free download program on the internet that will tune differently spined arrows out of people's bows. It gives me a "tunable" arrow in about 15 minutes. You have to input the correct data in the 14 boxes to make it work, but it tunes carbon, wood and aluminum arrows. It's tuned both of my aluminum arrows that I shoot out of my 42# and 37# recurves which you can see in my signature. I fine tune by adding or subtracting point weight and also by adjusting brace height up or down. You'd need Microsoft Excell to automatically open the program up, but if you don't have Excell, you can download the free Open Office program to use Stu Miller's Dynamic Spine Calculator. Try it. It may work for you.

http://heilakka.com/stumiller/

http://www.openoffice.org/
Blacktail TD Recurve: 66", 42# @ 30". Arrow: 32", 2212. PW: 75 Grains. AW: 421 Grains. SPD: 185 fps. GPP: 10.02
Blacktail TD Recurve: 66", 37# @ 30". Arrow: 32", 2212. PW: 75 Grains. AW: 421 Grains. SPD: 174 fps. GPP: 11.37

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Re: Trying to get better...

Post by Curve1 » Tue Nov 16, 2010 8:29 am

Thanks for the input fellas.

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Re: Trying to get better...

Post by TradRag » Tue Nov 16, 2010 9:59 am

I'm not a fan of bare shaft tuning. I find it frustrating and aggravating. :x
Same here. :evil:
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Re: Trying to get better...

Post by Bounty Hunter » Tue Nov 16, 2010 10:15 am

Night Wing wrote:Stu Miller's Dynamic Spine Calculator.
Wow pretty cool, but it totally disagrees with what I came up with bare shaft tuning. I might have to build a set based on what it determines and see if they work, but I don't know that it could come up with better flight of arrow than I already have.
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Re: Trying to get better...

Post by Night Wing » Tue Nov 16, 2010 11:01 am

Bounty,

Everything inputted into the those 14 boxes has to be correct. Most people don't know if their bow is cut to center or past center and if past center, how far past center in inches. My Blacktail TD recurves are cut 3/16" past center. Put in the wrong number and it will give you the "wrong" arrow or the right arrow, but slightly off so it shoots right or left of where you're looking at. Other people don't know how many strands are in their bowstring. For a 40# bow, most people will assume a 14 strand bowstring, but mine is a 12 strand bowstring made out of Dyna97. Another place where people make mistakes is the nock end weight. I shoot Easton Camo Hunter arrows. My Super Nock weighs 13 grains, but I have to add the weight of the uni bushings for my 2114 and 2117 arrows and those are different grain weights. Most people forget to add that weight to the nock weight. The calculator is only as good as the data that's put into those boxes.
Blacktail TD Recurve: 66", 42# @ 30". Arrow: 32", 2212. PW: 75 Grains. AW: 421 Grains. SPD: 185 fps. GPP: 10.02
Blacktail TD Recurve: 66", 37# @ 30". Arrow: 32", 2212. PW: 75 Grains. AW: 421 Grains. SPD: 174 fps. GPP: 11.37

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Re: Trying to get better...

Post by Curve1 » Tue Nov 16, 2010 1:27 pm

I've always found that all the charts and recomendations are just a starting point. Usually if I'm shooting a 45-50 lb recurve, I know that a 2016 will work....but sometimes like mentioned above it will depend on how close to center the bow is cut ect.
So far, out of my r/d longbow which is not center cut....but it has a decent shelf...... .my 1916's with a 175 grain point fly better than anything I have shot. Normally I would have thaught this setup would have been on the weak side.

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Re: Trying to get better...

Post by Bounty Hunter » Tue Nov 16, 2010 1:41 pm

All the info I inputed is correct for the bow and the arrows I'm shooting but it is saying the arrows are over spined for the CX 150s. I'll have to get home to find all the information on the Quest Thumpers before I can tell if it is in disagreement on them. The FoC is pretty close to what I have for the CX shafts and the bow data is pretty dead on as well.
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Re: Trying to get better...

Post by Night Wing » Tue Nov 16, 2010 5:07 pm

Bounty,

Just remember the design of the bow will affect the calculator. My Blacktails and from other Blacktail owners I've talked with, love a stiff arrow. With my 42# bow shooting a 32" 2117, the calculator has me dead on with a 215 grain tip point weight. But, in reality it likes a 200 grain tip point weight. The 15 grain difference shows up at 20 yards, slightly off. Same thing for my 37# bow shooting a 32" 2114. The calculator has it almost dead on with a 185 grain tip point weight. But again, it loves a 180 grain tip point weight. That 5 grain difference shouldn't make a difference, but at 20 yards, it shows up and it's slightly off. Both the 2117 and the 2114 are stiff arrows, but I let the design of the bow tell me what it likes. I fined tuned the arrows by adjusting the brace height downward. The brace height on my 42# bow is 7.562" and the brace height on my 37# bow is (7.687"). Keep in mind the bowyer, for his 66" take down recurves, recommends a 7.750"-8.000" brace height so I'm slightly below what he recommends.
Blacktail TD Recurve: 66", 42# @ 30". Arrow: 32", 2212. PW: 75 Grains. AW: 421 Grains. SPD: 185 fps. GPP: 10.02
Blacktail TD Recurve: 66", 37# @ 30". Arrow: 32", 2212. PW: 75 Grains. AW: 421 Grains. SPD: 174 fps. GPP: 11.37

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Re: Trying to get better...

Post by sharkbaitffd » Tue Nov 16, 2010 8:57 pm

Night & Bounty,

Do you tune with bare shaft groups?? I think it's called the "planning" method?? Where you tune the bare shaft group by where they hit in relation to your fletched arrows? I hope this isn't too broad a question. Thanks again for the input...still messing with the spine calc.
Count it all joy, my brethren, when you meet various trials, for you know that the testing of your faith produces steadfastness. And let steadfastness have its full effect, that you may be perfect and complete, lacking in nothing.
-James 1:2-4-

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Re: Trying to get better...

Post by Night Wing » Tue Nov 16, 2010 9:47 pm

No, I don't bareshaft tune anymore. Bareshaft tuning takes a lot of time and you have to have a perfect release. If your arrow release is slightly less the perfect, it will give you false results. Spending hours bareshaft tuning and getting frustrated and aggravated is something I hate. With Stu Miller's free DSC program, I can get a tunable arrow in 15 minutes. With this program, I have my field point tipped arrows and my broadhead tipped arrows of the same weight hitting the same spots on a target. Since the DSC program came along and it works for me, I've kicked bareshaft tuning to the curb.

http://heilakka.com/stumiller/
Blacktail TD Recurve: 66", 42# @ 30". Arrow: 32", 2212. PW: 75 Grains. AW: 421 Grains. SPD: 185 fps. GPP: 10.02
Blacktail TD Recurve: 66", 37# @ 30". Arrow: 32", 2212. PW: 75 Grains. AW: 421 Grains. SPD: 174 fps. GPP: 11.37

Curve1
5X5 Bull
Posts:495
Joined:Thu Dec 10, 2009 7:57 pm

Re: Trying to get better...

Post by Curve1 » Wed Nov 17, 2010 12:41 am

Night Wing wrote:No, I don't bareshaft tune anymore. Bareshaft tuning takes a lot of time and you have to have a perfect release. If your arrow release is slightly less the perfect, it will give you false results. Spending hours bareshaft tuning and getting frustrated and aggravated is something I hate. With Stu Miller's free DSC program, I can get a tunable arrow in 15 minutes. With this program, I have my field point tipped arrows and my broadhead tipped arrows of the same weight hitting the same spots on a target. Since the DSC program came along and it works for me, I've kicked bareshaft tuning to the curb.

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My thaughts... exactly.

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Bounty Hunter
Royal (6X6) Bull
Posts:681
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Re: Trying to get better...

Post by Bounty Hunter » Wed Nov 17, 2010 8:09 am

Night Wing wrote:Bounty,

Just remember the design of the bow will affect the calculator. My Blacktails and from other Blacktail owners I've talked with, love a stiff arrow. With my 42# bow shooting a 32" 2117, the calculator has me dead on with a 215 grain tip point weight. But, in reality it likes a 200 grain tip point weight. The 15 grain difference shows up at 20 yards, slightly off. Same thing for my 37# bow shooting a 32" 2114. The calculator has it almost dead on with a 185 grain tip point weight. But again, it loves a 180 grain tip point weight. That 5 grain difference shouldn't make a difference, but at 20 yards, it shows up and it's slightly off. Both the 2117 and the 2114 are stiff arrows, but I let the design of the bow tell me what it likes. I fined tuned the arrows by adjusting the brace height downward. The brace height on my 42# bow is 7.562" and the brace height on my 37# bow is (7.687"). Keep in mind the bowyer, for his 66" take down recurves, recommends a 7.750"-8.000" brace height so I'm slightly below what he recommends.
That explains it as I know my White Wolf is cut 1/8 past center and likes stiff arrows.
sharkbaitffd wrote:Night & Bounty,

Do you tune with bare shaft groups?? I think it's called the "planning" method?? Where you tune the bare shaft group by where they hit in relation to your fletched arrows? I hope this isn't too broad a question. Thanks again for the input...still messing with the spine calc.
I don't know what it is called, but I've always bare shaft tuned for them to group as near as possible to where I would normally group with fletched arrows. My Cedar arrows will give me a bare shaft group in the 4 inch ranges (within 4 inches of point of aim). The CX Heritage 150s will group about the same as the Cedar, but the Quest Thumpers bare shaft grouped sometimes as little as 2 inches with most of the groups being under 3 inches. The groups I can get with the fletched Thumpers is almost scary.

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