scout4 need help with pedersoli

Traditional Muzzleloaders, Flintlocks, Pistols, front stuffer kits, etc.
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scout4
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scout4 need help with pedersoli

Post by scout4 » Thu Oct 05, 2017 6:34 am

Not really sure what's going on with my pedersoli hawken?
At only 25 yard it shoots shotgun like pattern all the time!
I've tried 3 different powders, the standard good ole black powder, pyrodex rs, and now pyrodex select 3f.
I've tried several different of varying thickness patches and a couple different rb bullets.
I've taken that barrel off and lapped the bore, adjusted and readjusted the sights.
cleaned after only 2 - 3 shots fired.
my hold is the same shot to shot shooting off the bench with the same exact sight picture!
Once yesterday at the range it grouped 2 shots! I was thrilled! I thought, alright now maybe this is going to work!...Ha, not so, my next shot was way off to the right, inches outside the circle, same amount of powder, same patch an ball, same hold and sight picture!...?...what the?
What could be going on?
Thank you for your replies!
scout4

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Re: scout4 need help with pedersoli

Post by Captchee » Thu Oct 05, 2017 8:18 am

well there could be several things .
first I would drop a bore light and see what the condition of the barrel is .
but normally at a range of 25 yards you should at least be holding a 3 or 4 inch group and sometimes better with a pitted bore. in fact I have seem barrels that I would have sworn were so bad that wouldn't hold any group , yet shot amazingly well .

Next I would check the crown . make sure there is no damage and that its nice and even all the way around . no burrs or nicks in the rifling at the crown or crown to muzzle
next I would check your sights make sure the don't wiggle at all .
next would be wedge key . it should be snug and not loosen up after firing .

if that all checks out I would fire the rifle from a good bench rest .
IE one that is designed to hold the rifle independent of you movements.
If that's not an option then I would have another experienced shooter fire the rifle for group .

to be honest and I could be wrong and meaning no disrespect ,but what it sounds like to me , beings your having an issue at such close range is that your follow through isn't happening after the shot . POI for a right handed shooter will normally be to the right with a head raise or heavy trigger pull . opposite for left handed shooters . if a persons head is coming up at trigger pull it will normally throw the projectile low . if one is ducking the ignition then high . in both cases the POI will be in the direction of the shooting hand .
the other issue could also be fit of the rifle . if your not able to place your cheek in the same spot each time then your sight picture will be different each time . try placing a piece of tape on the stock so as to insure your anchoring the rifle the same with each shot .

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Re: scout4 need help with pedersoli

Post by scout4 » Thu Oct 05, 2017 9:30 am

20171005_102351.jpg
Hey, Thank you Captchee!
There are two main things you have stated that I am going to do.
Check that crown, because there is hardly any of a crown on that barrel. And check my movement at shooting the rifle.
Here's a pic of my last target. Its not pretty.

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Re: scout4 need help with pedersoli

Post by doggoner » Thu Oct 05, 2017 11:43 am

Scout4

How "new" is your rifle? I have a TVM built rifle that shot minute of peach basket for the first 100 or so shots. The more I shot it the better it shot. Your rifle may just need to be shot a bunch to get the barrel to "settle in" or "break in" as it were. Don't give up just yet if this is a "new" rifle. Just my experience and YMMV.

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Re: scout4 need help with pedersoli

Post by scout4 » Thu Oct 05, 2017 1:18 pm

Thanks doggoner! I've had this rifle for about 2yrs. I prolly do not have 100 rounds through it yet. But I did remove the barrel and bore lapped it to remove any burrs and stuff from the rifling. After that from what I could see of the rifling and bore it all looks clean and shines like a new dime!
Thanks for your input I appreciate it!
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Re: scout4 need help with pedersoli

Post by hanshi » Thu Oct 05, 2017 4:39 pm

If the barrel was reinstalled firmly after you lapped the bore, it might just need 100 more rounds through it. If these two things are needed (or not needed), at least two variables can be put to rest.
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Re: scout4 need help with pedersoli

Post by WinterHawk » Thu Oct 05, 2017 4:51 pm

+1 on what Captchee said. Have someone else shoot it from the bench and see if they do any better.

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Re: scout4 need help with pedersoli

Post by scout4 » Thu Oct 05, 2017 6:40 pm

I've had a good talk with my local gunshop smithy, I'm taking the barrel to him tomorrow morning first thing and he is going to recut the crown for me. I may check out getting a new rear sight installed. I actually have the sight but need a dovetail cut into barrel top flat. Anyway, we will have this done and then go from there! Thanks for your replies!
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Re: scout4 need help with pedersoli

Post by Captchee » Fri Oct 06, 2017 11:02 am

This is going to be a long post so please bear with me and my spelling LOL .
also please know Scout4 that I'm just using you as an example here and trying to explain what I think I see happening . again I could be completely off base here .

looking at your target I would say its most likely its your input to the rifle . now I cant say that 100% certainty because I'm not there watching you shoot .but here goes

i would say that #2 and #6 are what I call your natural habit group. 3 would be flyers . your actual group is 1,5 and 4 is transition or adjustment
now I'm sure we all would agree that such a group at 25 yards is still not acceptable .
however here is what I think maybe happening . but before I go into that lets talk about a couple things starting with bench rests .

for the most part we are all probably country folks here or at least a semblance of generational country type upbringing when it comes to shooting . what I'm getting at with that is that when it comes to bench rests we define them as everything from resting the gun on a blanket across the hood of our truck to shooting from a bench with a sand bag , blanket right down to an actual bench rest and any manor in between .
while all these things work and work well , the reality is that in a situation like this where another experienced shooter is not available to watch your actual shot , then none but a true bench rest that removes you from the equation will tell much of anything . This doesn't have to be some expensive set up . but it does have to be something that will rest the forestock so that your not gripping it at all .. better rests have cradles adjustments and butt stock .

now before someone goes off and says ; ya but ..... and this and that ...
let me say , yes I know and probably would agree . but we are not talking a shooting type rest here . what we are wanting to do is test the rifle . as such we need a rest that will remove the shooter as much as possible from the equation for the specific reason that the shooter feels there is an issue with the barrel . In which case I doesn't mater what type of gun we are testing .

Now lets talk specifically BP muzzleloaders . Traditional ones and how they shoot .
For those of you who are also archers, let me say this ; Traditional muzzle loading is pretty much the very same discipline when it comes to shooting as archery . IE the shooter runs into the very same issues . thus if one is an archer and carries those same practices when shooting a bow into shooting a traditional muzzleloader , be that a flintlock or a percussion , you success rate will greatly increase .
So lets start with that, we know what happens when a new archer shooter has a problem with limp wrist when holding a bow . they often experience string slap on their forearm as well as inconsistency in accuracy .
Choking the riser ; IE the shooters grip is so tight that the bow is twisted upon release as well as other issues .
Archer point : if your anchor point when you draw the bow is not consistent then your aiming point is also not consistent and accuracy is effected .
Follow through : IE holding the bow steady thought the release . without proper follow through if the bow is dropped or turned at any point in the minute milliseconds before the arrow leaves the rest then accuracy is effected .
think about what happens if you look up so see the arrow right after release . Chances are the bow is dropped or twisted before the arrow clears. we can go on and on but I think you get the point .

see while we are shooting a system which is faster then a bow when it comes to sending the projectile down range , its still slow enough that between ignition and the time the projectile leaves the barrel , we effect where that projectile is placed .
so think about all those things from hold , draw ,anchor and follow through

Now lets go back to the target posted . these are some things I see a lot with folks to include myself when I haven't shot in a while .

shot #1 . the gun is rested , shooter is concentrating on target . he has a good release . IE trigger pull is smooth . the shooters face is anchored and has a sight picture .
this is the first shot and we think MMMM ? what the hell . its high

we load again . getting the gun rested . but this time we hold a little tight on the forearm and because we now are concerned about placement. that first shot should have been center ? we don't follow through as we should . as we raise our head the natural effect is that our left arm pulls left and the muzzle drops alittle . we are now off target low and left . and we have shot #2

now we are getting alittle frustrated and again settle in for the shot . but we are concerned more with shot placement then staying in our shot routine. thus we get a head raise to see where the projectile was placed . thus we get #3 the more your head comes off the stock and out of sight alignment the muzzle drop and the lower the POI will be .

Now the result is ;WHAT THE !@#@$%$##@@. our confidence is shot to shit . the natural result is we bear down . maybe we take a deep breath and walk up to the target , have a smoke , slow down in our loading alittle ....... but the result is the same in that we have a tendency to bear down on the next shot which means we get back into the basics . IE we lay the rifle up on the rest . settle in , get a sight picture , take a deep breath and start trigger pull . we are tense and not relaxed but because we are taking a little more time , concentrating more on our shooting , we don't look up .
frankly we don't want to see where the POI was because we are sure its going to be ?? who knows where . Thus we get follow through without even realizing it . thus we get #4 .

Now we relax alittle but because were thinking ; shit ? I'm all over the place what's going on ???
10 or 20 different things are going through our heads . however at the same time our brain says ;OK we did X and that resulted in shot #4 . so we actual calm down just a little and settle back in to the next shot. this time we get our breathing down . we concentrate a little more on trigger pull and suddenly the rifle goes off and it surprises us . maybe even to the point we go Dam !!! I wasn't ready for that one . but when we look the POI tells the tail and we get a shot like #5

now our frustration level starts to drop even more . while our group is all over the place . we are only seeing shot #5 and this time by god we are going to put it right in the center . But what we end up doing is falling back into the very same problem we had back in the beginning when we made the second shot . our routine fails . . we concentrate only on the sites being center mass. were gripping the stock tight across the rest , bearing down . this ones going center . the gun goes off and we look up . the result is the same and we end up with the exact same result as #2 in every shape and form. To the point we get the same shot placement and group .

Now we are really frustrated and give up . we blame the gun, the barrel .......... But the target tells the tail . See when we do the same thing over and over it results in the same result and the result in this case is #2 and #6 .

when I build a gun for a person , I shoot it for group at 25 and 50 yards . most times its 50 .
Now there is a reason for that . the reason is that my hold and shooting practices are completely different then the person who will be shooting the gun .There for it does no good to sight it in to the point I'm fine tuning sights .... what I'm after is a group . With in reason ,I don't care if that group is high or low . In fact unless the group is completely off the paper I don't care if its right , left, high or low of center. since I shoot a lot I know a basic average load that will place a group . well generally lol . but all I'm really concerned with is that the gun I have built will group . its up to the owner to fine tune that group to their style of shooting .
So why 50 yards instead of 25 ? well because I too like to see a good POI and at 25 I cant resist looking at the target between shots or while looking through the sights . Thus If I'm not carful I fall into what I described above . so at 50 I cant see the group . I just aim center as best I can concentrating ONLY on my shooting routine.
The rifle is rested at the forearm . the rifle is rested at a hight that I'm not leaned down into it but slightly leaned over so my cheek rests against the stock . I don't hold it in any way with my left hand other then across the comb . sights are aligned. When all that is ok then I start my shot . the rifle is cocked . Triggers set and sights on target . deep breather , slowly letting it out with a slow squeeze . If everything goes right she goes off right as the sights settle at the bottom of my breath.
Now the fun part , when you really get down into a good shooting routine is that if your wearing ear plugs you can easily hear your hart beat, before long you will be able to fine tune that routine where your trigger pull , breathing and ignition all happen between beats of your hart .

Anyway getting off track here . shoot 5 shots and then go look at the target . If I find I don't have a group or the group is large and you know your routine is sound then start looking at your loads , lube , patch's ...... Are the patches torn or burnt through anywhere ?
Burnt holes mean a thicker patch or lower load or better lube is needed. torn or shredded patches and you either have sharp rifling or your tearing the patch as you start it. A thinner patch or smaller ball maybe in order or you may have a burr on the crown . these are just a few things to look for as part of tuning and working up a load .

Pay 0 attention to where that group is on the paper tell you actually get a group . then and only then start adjusting your sight to move that group up on paper .

the other thing people often fall into is they expect to sight in their muzzleloader like a center fire . sometimes that works but most times it doesn't . think Traditional or primitive bow and modern compound . all are completely different and if we treat them as such we will have a lot better success.

So scout4 have your gunsmith look over the crown of your rifle . hopefully he has experience with muzzleloaders . the crown should be smooth with no burrs at the rifling . it doesn't have to be deep .

when you get the barrel back make sure it sets solid to you stock . the wedge key should fit tight .
if not bend them just fudge so they do. you should be able tp press the barrel down tight with you hand and insert the wedge . they should don't easily pop out . good thumb pressure to a light tap with a soft mallet isn't in heard of . they should go in the same side up and from the same side every time . if your rifle has 2 wedge keys then the will also go into the same place every time. try not to interchange them .
When you go out and shoot don't look at the target tell you have around 5 shots down range . 10 , 15 or 25 yards is ok just try to concentrate ONLY on the shooting routine and holding the site center , pay 0 attention right now to where the ball goes . just get your routine down.
what I think you will find is that your barrel as it is right now is capable of shooting a group just like #2 and #6 .
anyway sorry for writing a book . its probably to long for most to read LOL .

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Re: scout4 need help with pedersoli

Post by WinterHawk » Fri Oct 06, 2017 10:01 pm

Very well said, Captchee! A great analysis of the target. Maybe we should leave the spotting scopes in the car for the first five shots, eh? The 50 yard idea so I can't see the bullet holes has a lot of merit, something I should start doing also.

Thank you for posting the "book"!
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Re: scout4 need help with pedersoli

Post by scout4 » Sat Oct 07, 2017 6:56 am

Thank you for replies.
shot 1 & 2 was 70 grains 3f.
shot 3 was 70 grn.3f after sight adjusted.
4 5 & 6 i lowered the charge to 50 grains same powder 3f.
The shooting is always at a Pa. state game lands rifle range off shooting benches designed for that purpose.
My gun smith has extensive experience with muzzleloading firearms. 30 plus years in his shop.
We found the crown is flawed. The rifle came from Pedersoli that way.

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Re: scout4 need help with pedersoli

Post by Captchee » Sat Oct 07, 2017 9:34 am

what was wrong with the crown ? did the smith explain it to you ?
I would be very interested in knowing , if you could explain it

you will see a difference when you change powder IE moving from 2 to 3 F or changing amounts of power . IE dropping the charge or raising it .
If we can say this , 2F is alittle slower to build pressure because it takes alittle longer for the grain to burn completely thus the projectile has already started to move and creates a larger area to be filled with pressure
3F is creates a higher pressure because the grain is burnt faster thus the space between the projectile and breech is slightly smaller .
the actual burn rate of the powder itself never changes .
normally as a rule when switching from 2F to 3 F ill drop the 3F charge by 10 grains . when going from 3F to 2F ill raise the 2F charge by 10 grains . I know its not exact but for me it does seem to work .

once you find a load that your rifle likes , your also going to find that you have a target load that with minor adjustments to your sight picture will produce close to the same results at loser ranges . the size of powder grain should not change IE one shouldn't need to have a 2F charge for target shooting and a 3F charge for hunting .
Case in point my hand made iron barrel on my flintlock rifle will place a PRB 2 inch 5 shot group at 100 yards benched . charge is 80 grains 3F with a .015 patch . at 25 and 50 yards that group is alittle high .At 200 yards that group is about 3ft low and the group grows to around 10 inchs from the bench . 18 to 20 inchs off hand ..
now that all being said a 50 grain charge will still produce near the same group with the group being low at 100 .
depending on the competition your shooting in you may see folks use a lower charge . the reason for that is a little less recoil and one conserves power to some existent ,while at the same time producing the same result of being on target with POI .
Myself I never use that lower charge . the reason being is that
A: I use my rifle for hunting
B: a lot of the competitions I shoot in are not paper . IE range is unknown . shots are all standing and off hand non rested . targets can range from 15 yards to 200+
because I also shoot a lot of off hand long range events where I know ill be shooting in the 150 to 300 yard range , I don't like getting in the habit of switching loads . thus making the short range events basically practice for long range shooting . thus I know where the ball is going to go with one charge at all ranges .

the reason I say all that is that at 25 yards the change in powder should not make that big of a difference in your group . Also I would submit to you that even with an adjustable rear sight , you would have had to crank that a lot to get that much drop in your sight picture at 25 yards as well as completely changing where you held the front blade within the rear sight as part of your sight picture .

now as to the crown .
the purpose of the crown on a muzzleloader serves more purpose then the crown on a center fire. that's why my comment about the Smith you chose . For most of my life I have dealt specifically with muzzleloaders and today that's all I deal with in my shop . So understand I meant no offence to your gunsmith. only to state that there are differences in the systems .

sometimes I have ran across rifles with a crown so small it basically was non existent. In Fact depending on the rifle , IE one where a false muzzle is used , there will be no muzzle crown at all .
in other cases that crown can be very deep as with a QLA or when a coned muzzle has been done .
If a the crown on a center fire is off or damaged on a centerfire it can have drastic results in your accuracy , this is do to the velocities the projectile is being propelled to and how the pressure gets release un evenly when the projectile leaves the muzzle .

with a muzzleloader having a damaged or improper crown can have much the same effect . however most times it results in damaged patch's during loading . this will magnify the issue because the patch is your gas seal . In the case of conical shooting , the base of the bullet gets distorted , again resulting in damage to the gas seal ,Thus throwing the projectile off as it leaves the muzzle.
if the damage is in one location then what happens is your get a consistent POI and a larger group . the reason its consistent is that the leak is the same every time . it doesn't change .
this is why 90% of the time where folks find crown issues is when dealing with accuracy at longer ranges or when trying to produce MOA or single hole groups at closer ranges .

Thus what I would expect have seen with a damage crown or improper off center crown would have been a target with and open group at 25 yard . but still a group . with ranges past say 50 yards that group would grow wider , yet still in the opposing side of the issue with the crown . IE if the burr or unevenness was on say the right side your projectile would throw left consistently with the group opening up at longer ranges . I also have seen where a damaged crown can produce a wide but circular pattern at longer ranges. Myself I think this is a result of the ball being hooked . think of a pitcher throwing a hooked ball at the catcher . So while having your barrel re crowned is surly going to help . especially if it was bad. but at 25 yards I really think you have more going on then the crown unless it was seriously tearing your patches when loading .

So if you would could you humor me just alittle here .
next time you go out shooting and if find your still not grouping , clean your barrel and then try shooting 70 grains of 2F . shoot 5 shots . post a picture of your target as well as pick up all 5 patches .they will be on the ground about 15 to 20 feet in front of your bench . post a photo of those patches as well as your target . if its possible try and keep the patches numbered in order of your shots. If not that's OK . dont swab the barrel between shots . let the barrel foul . If after a couple shots its getting to hard to load then go ahead and swab . but let me know you had to swab and at what shoot you felt you had to .
don't worry about group . just try and hold same sight picture with each shot . group doesn't mater . just take your time and concentrate on shooting discipline. keep your head down and follow through to the point that when the smoke clears your still holding on target . lets see what happens
be safe and happy shooting

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Re: scout4 need help with pedersoli

Post by scout4 » Sat Oct 07, 2017 1:25 pm

Again Captchee, thank you for your experience and very helpful information.
basically the crown which there is almost none is nicked up, plenty enough so that by his standards is professionally unexceptable. ...My own personal conclusion is that if you want a Pedersoli then do not purchase it from Cabelas, purchase from Cherrys or Taylors & Company.

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Re: scout4 need help with pedersoli

Post by Captchee » Sat Oct 07, 2017 4:05 pm

if it was that bad then yep it could cause your issues as you have no to little patch integrity

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Re: scout4 need help with pedersoli

Post by scout4 » Fri Oct 13, 2017 8:13 pm

Here is pictures of the new muzzle crown my local smithy did for me on this Pedersoli.
He said the original factory crown was cut out of round. He did give me measurements but I do not remember them, basically, the old crown was touching very little of the rifling on one side and alot on the opposite side, now thats my way of saying it. "bottom - line" original crown was off center and rough.
I did go to the range today just to try it out. Still in the process of perfecting its accuracy, but it is a whole lot better than it was.
Thanks, and have a good evening!
Ray
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Re: scout4 need help with pedersoli

Post by scout4 » Fri Oct 13, 2017 8:15 pm

Here is another picture.
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Re: scout4 need help with pedersoli

Post by Captchee » Sat Oct 14, 2017 8:21 am

did you already have a recessed muzzle ?
I wonder , whats the twist rate on your barrel . I have never seen that on a slow twist PRB barrel be it a Pedersoli or TC but for fast twist modern muzzleloading barrels . TC often used the QLA but that's not what you have

probably just the way the photos was taken but I don't see the crown . must be very slight
looks like he also may have coned chaffered or whats also sometimes called relieving the bore by the looks of your rifling that I can see .
that most certainly would have squared the rifling .
I would have expected to see a good heavy radius crown .
doesn't really mater , lots of ways to skin a cat . let us know how she shoots once you get it dialed in

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Re: scout4 need help with pedersoli

Post by scout4 » Sat Oct 14, 2017 12:58 pm

Hey Captchee! No it was not a recessed muzzle, the smith did that. The chamfer, that is what he said is one thing he did with it. But anyway, as I stated, what the smith did has made a big difference.
Next time I'm at the shooting range I'll get some better pictures for y'all.
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Re: scout4 need help with pedersoli

Post by WinterHawk » Sat Oct 14, 2017 6:42 pm

Great that it is shooting better for you! Now the fun begins, working up the optimum load for your rifle. Be sure to send us photos of the final results....

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Re: scout4 need help with pedersoli

Post by petew » Wed Dec 20, 2017 2:26 am

what are those gouges on the rifling ? Did the Smith do that ?
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