Let's do some bear coins

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Let's do some bear coins

Postby bowdoc » Sun Dec 20, 2009 8:00 am

what ya thinking ? I need to post some coin pics later today anyhow ? bd
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Re: Let's do some bear coins

Postby CrookedStick » Sun Dec 20, 2009 9:13 am

Doc, if your definition of 'do' is 'post pics', then here's a couple:
'61 Grizzly
61GrizCoin.jpg
'59 Polar
59polarcoin.jpg
Kurt's coin (with a wee bit of modification) on a '59 Grizzly
59grizcoin.jpg
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Re: Let's do some bear coins

Postby bowdoc » Sun Dec 20, 2009 1:00 pm

here's a 1964 nickle coin this would be the same as a 1963 I'll try and get some better pics up later today.
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63 001.JPG
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Re: Let's do some bear coins

Postby kurtbel5 » Mon Dec 21, 2009 12:28 pm

Some of you might not know how this happened, that I sell these coins.

A couple years ago(really??) it became clear that a bunch of the collectors/restoration bo ho's were not able to find any reproduction Copper coins to replace lost or damaged coins in their '59/'60 bows or at least not affordable ones.
I think I remember original Copper coins at that time were being sold for $50+/- on Ebay and TG classifieds.

3r's sells the round back Brass coins which are correct for later Bear bows, but no one had made any other repro's for a while.
Doc remembers Val Sorrentino making some, I think a few other old timers made small runs.

With the help of morning crew at History/Collecting, I polled and found that the flat backed Bear coin was the hardest to find, spent some time finding out about infringement issues,
got a few hardy souls to commit to buying a few.

Trap turned an original over to me for a master die to be made, and off to the races we went...

Now before we go much further, these are made for me by a mom and pop outfit that are salt of the earth,and in the USA, we could go offshore and buy in a higher volume, cut some $$ for you, which sounds great huh? can't do it, sending more work away is not the recipe for our country to bounce back, I have to go with the bows were made here, and so are any medallions I sell.

Now I have the Copper, Aluminum, and Sterling Silver Medallions and 2 kinds of Silver pins with another style of pin coming soon.
I think that only leaves Pewter left and I can't pay him enough to work with it.

My mom and pop shop are wondering if anyone wants actual jewelry like Bear earrings or rings in gold, latches for TD's?? PM me for that kind of stuff

Merry Christmas
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Re: Let's do some bear coins

Postby Wade Phillips » Mon Dec 21, 2009 12:40 pm

Doc - This is a broken 1964 Kodiak Magnum with what I thought was a brass coin before you started this thread... Put an aluminum and brass coin on the bow for comparison to take a photograph before and after polishing all three with Wright's Silver Polish.

Used my thumb nail to pop most of the finish off the coin in the bow, note darker lower left portion of coin in bow still has finish on it.

Top - before polishing

Bottom - After polishing all three, it is easy to see the coin in the bow is nickle silver ...

Doc - Thanks for bringing this to our attention and prompted me to look at this bow

... you the man this Christmas week Doc.
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Re: Let's do some bear coins

Postby kurtbel5 » Mon Dec 21, 2009 12:53 pm

Wade
Is that the last one you were looking for your medallion display?
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Re: Let's do some bear coins

Postby Wade Phillips » Mon Dec 21, 2009 5:36 pm

kurtbel5 wrote:Wade
Is that the last one you were looking for your medallion display?


Kurt - Yes, that was the last coin I was looking for. Until Doc posted this thread, I didn't even realize that I probably have dozens of those Nickel Silver coins in these 1963 to 1968 Bear Bows that I have.

Have always thought they were all just brass, as these newer nickle silver coins are not really the same color as the flat Bear coin in nickle.

I'll have to get that coin display squared away here this evening after I pop that nickle silver coin out of that Kodiak Magnum with the shattered lower limb ....

As many of know, I have never put much store in using coins to date bows and obviously have never paid close attention to the coins.

Guess this exercise only substantiates again, just how ineffective coins are for use to date bows.

If you want to date a Bear bow accurately, is is wise to look at the riser shape or the form the bow was built on.
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Re: Let's do some bear coins

Postby bowdoc » Tue Dec 22, 2009 6:46 am

damn it I should have sold all my extra nickle coins first and then posted this thread.
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Re: Let's do some bear coins

Postby Wade Phillips » Tue Dec 22, 2009 11:53 am

Doc - You blew your marketing opportunity, and you re-wrote the book.

This paper will have to be upgraded and reprinted now...
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Re: Let's do some bear coins

Postby bowdoc » Tue Dec 22, 2009 2:33 pm

gee's what old age will do to your marketing skills.
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Re: Let's do some bear coins

Postby Tony Wallace » Tue Dec 22, 2009 5:48 pm

So Wade - I see you corrected the card to say 63 - 72 Nickle Silver. Are the brass also still 63-72, now that we know to look for yellowed finish?
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Re: Let's do some bear coins

Postby Wade Phillips » Sun Dec 27, 2009 8:11 am

TonyW wrote:So Wade - I see you corrected the card to say 63 - 72 Nickle Silver. Are the brass also still 63-72, now that we know to look for yellowed finish?


Tony - Great question. I believe Doc is the one to ask. Undoubtedly Doc has had more coins out of Bear Bows than all the rest of us put together.

Unless the bow is broken, I'm not going to start popping coins out of original bows to check examine the metal the coins are made from.

For years I've preached that coins are not valid for dating bows. I put little if any store in coins in Bear bows and paid little attention to coins unless it was an obvious difference. It is only the last year or so that I even organized the loose coins that have been laying around here into a display. I simply made my version of Al Reader's coin display.

I know Al Reader did put some store in the coins in Bear bows.

First, let me say, that there isn't anyone who ever collected Bear Archery tackle that I respected more or admired more than Al. He was the best. Al and I were friends for over 25 years and many times one of us learned something and shared it with the other that was not known by either of us before. Like many of us here, Al and I both considered ourselves to be students of Bear Bows and realized that there is always much to be learned.

As my Dad frequently said, "What really counts is what you learn after you think you have learned it all."

I'm going to quote Al here in an article that he wrote that was originally printed in Traditional Bowhunter, Oct/Nov 1997...

Also in 1970 and 1971 a few nickel silver coin medallions appear in top model bows. These are scattered and are identical in appearance to the aluminum. As with "all years" these coins all overlap, so precise dating could be difficult. - Al Reader, Oct/Nov 1997 Traditional Bowhunter


Many people look at Al's photograph of coins in the article and accept the dates on the coins as Gospel...

They neglect to read and try to understand Al's text...
As with "all years" these coins all overlap, so precise dating could be difficult.


If Al were still alive today, I am certain that he would be the first one to change some dates on his coin display...
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Re: Let's do some bear coins

Postby bowdoc » Sun Dec 27, 2009 9:00 am

little trivia some but not all maybe 75% of 1971 and early 1972 Super Kodiaks have aluminum coins.However as mentioned there is a few SK's that bear the nickle silver coin in 71-72 but you could also run across a 71-72 ish SK that may have the same brass coin as a Bear t/d would have.At least 3 different coins for 70-72-ish.bd
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Re: Let's do some bear coins

Postby Wade Phillips » Wed Dec 30, 2009 1:36 pm

Seller says 1960's...



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Re: Let's do some bear coins

Postby Simon » Wed Dec 30, 2009 1:40 pm

I think not. 3R repro.
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Re: Let's do some bear coins

Postby Tony Wallace » Wed Dec 30, 2009 2:55 pm



Whatever it is, get 27 of these coins and you can buy a compass!
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Re: Let's do some bear coins

Postby Wade Phillips » Wed Dec 30, 2009 3:16 pm

Simon - You are correct, 3 Rivers sells them.

Just another example of how sellers put counterfeit items on eBay and represent them as originals.

Innocent, unknowledgeable buyers get taken.
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Re: Let's do some bear coins

Postby Dan in MI » Thu Dec 31, 2009 9:17 am

Ok you'tre confusing me.... :lol:

61 grizz, 62 K mag, 61 K mag as far as I know all unaltered. The Grizz looks like nickle, the 62 pewter w/paint, 61 AL w/ paint.

Image
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Re: Let's do some bear coins

Postby Wade Phillips » Thu Dec 31, 2009 9:45 am

See why coins are an unreliable characteristic to use for dating many of the Bear bows....
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Re: Let's do some bear coins

Postby kurtbel5 » Thu Dec 31, 2009 10:55 am

Dan I don't think thats black paint, more of a reaction between the coin and the finish.
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Re: Let's do some bear coins

Postby Dan in MI » Thu Dec 31, 2009 11:09 am

Kurt,

I thought they painted the 61-62 era coins. Look at the Grizz at the top of the thread. I've seen a bunch and they all look bascially the same. Seems like a reaction wouldn't be as consistant.
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Re: Let's do some bear coins

Postby seboomook » Thu Dec 31, 2009 11:29 am

I read somewhere the black is a primer because the clear finish wouldnt stick to the bare metal.
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Re: Let's do some bear coins

Postby Hoof » Thu Dec 31, 2009 9:14 pm

Here's one off my 59 Grizzly... I thought it was Nickel but maybe not?

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Re: Let's do some bear coins

Postby kurtbel5 » Fri Jan 01, 2010 11:48 am

I am always curious, does anybody know if they painted or used primer on the coins?
If thats true I will find a black aluminum primer and offer them painted to.
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Re: Let's do some bear coins

Postby Tony Wallace » Fri Jan 01, 2010 12:45 pm

BLACKENING ALUMINUM
by
JEROME KIMBERLIN

There are several ways to color aluminum black and among them
are black anodizing and paint. You could rub dirt into the aluminum
surface, I suppose, but of all the methods, I think chemical coloring
is the superior method. It is certainly cheaper, faster, and home use
allows the model engineer greater flexibility in the timing of his
decoration of models in progress.

Surface preparation of parts to be colored black is all
important as any irregularities are not covered by this finish. Paint
does build up and fill in scratches and other voids. Castings,
however, should look like castings if the prototype used castings, so
surface finish is always adjustable to the builders idea. The point
here is to emphasize that this blackening technique will not cover up
mistakes.

You will need three chemicals. These are: Nitric Acid, Copper
Nitrate, and Potassium Permanganate. You will also need some good
quality water - either distilled or deionized. I will give the
dimensions of the mixture in both metric and English units so that
both types of measures are accommodated:

Take: water 3 quarts 750ml
Add Acid 1/2 oz 5ml
Add Copper 3 oz 25gm
Add Permanganate 1 oz 10gm
Add Water to make 1 gal 1 liter

Obviously you will have to make up more or less solution to
fill the container you will use to color aluminum parts and the parts
to be colored should be completely covered by the solution. You
should use a glass or plastic container. A metal container will
poison the solution prematurely.

At 75 degrees F (24 C) temperature, the blackening process will
take about 15 minutes using a fresh solution. If it takes longer it
means the solution is deficient in one of the components. Usually,
copper nitrate and nitric acid need be added.

Aluminum is a strange metal to most of us. While we cannot see
it, the surface of a newly machined or cleaned piece of aluminum
combines with oxygen in the air to form a self protecting coating of
aluminum oxide. This happens within minutes. If this surface
continues to grow (get thicker) the blackening solution described here
will not work satisfactorily. Thus, the piece to be colored should be
cleaned just before immersing into the coloring solution. In my
experience, glass bead blasting is a superior way to clean the
aluminum surface and the choice of bead size determines surface
finish. Once the bead blasting has been accomplished, the beads can
be washed off with hot water and the aluminum piece immersed in the
blackening solution. I recommend that the time between blasting
(cleaning) and immersion in the blackening solution be less than two
hours. I once waited five hours and was disappointed in the results.
Once the blackening process has been completed, wash off the workpiece
with tap water, drain and spray with WD-40 or other water displacing
oil.

There are a number of ways to clean aluminum satisfactorily.
It is possible to simply sand the surface clean, or scrub it clean
with an abrasive. One can also chem clean aluminum by degreasing the
workpiece then dipping it into lye (Draino, for instance) for a few
minutes or seconds as required, then rinsing. The shape of the
workpiece and the model engineer's facilities often dictate what
method of surface preparation will be used.

Model engineers wishing to use this solution to blacken
aluminum castings or other parts should be aware that the chemical
components may be hazardous. While the solution itself is not
particularly dangerous it can make your hands purple, so use rubber or
plastic gloves. Potassium Permanganate is classified as an oxidizer
even though dilute solutions of it are used throughout the world to
sterilize vegetables used in salads, etc. Concentrated nitric acid
is just plain bad. The technique for using it is to pour out a little
in a glass container and then use an eye dropper to transfer the
liquid to a measuring container when the volume wanted is small, such
as that described here. Nitric acid also turns your hands yellow,
hurts, and removes fingerprints. A good way to avoid eye damage is to
wear a face shield such as the one you should be wearing when working
in front of your grinder.
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Re: Let's do some bear coins

Postby bowhunterfrompast » Fri Jan 01, 2010 1:35 pm

Is this an original Bear coin? After comparing to the reproduction coin posted above and the Bear coin cards, I say it is original.
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Re: Let's do some bear coins

Postby kurtbel5 » Fri Jan 01, 2010 2:16 pm

Hi Rick
I held up one of mine, and I'd say if thats not an original, its better than whats available, dang it :rolf:
Look at the detail on the snout.
Another one is the rim on the back.
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Re: Let's do some bear coins

Postby seboomook » Fri Jan 01, 2010 4:10 pm

I've been trying to find documentation on the black finish on the '61-'62 coins and found two descriptions.
First from Al Reader in 1997 from the archery collector site:
Quote " In 1960-61, aluminum was used and in 1962 a pewter like metal was used. This coin oxidized badly turning the finish black. Most of this finish chips off leaving a very dull gray metal underneath"
This '62 Kmag is evidence of this, bow has seen plenty of woods time, and the coin shows a spec of black finish left.
'62 coin medallion.jpg

Then Matt Dickerson describes the 61-62 coins in his "Bear Archery Kodiaks" article in stickbow 2002, as aluminum in 1961 early on, transitioning to pewter with a black finish in later '61 through '62.
These two '61 Alaskans have been lightly handled judging by the rest of the bow, and show quite a difference in finish wear.
'61 coin medallions 002.jpg

notice the shiny finish underneath indicating aluminum to me.
Couldnt find what material the black finish is, and cant find where I read it was primer earlier. But I really doubt Bear acid etched the coins, but I guess anything is possible.
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Re: Let's do some bear coins

Postby seboomook » Fri Jan 01, 2010 4:41 pm

Hoof
in the same article Al Reader said copper, nickle and brass were all used in 1959.
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Re: Let's do some bear coins

Postby Hoof » Fri Jan 01, 2010 8:35 pm

seboomook wrote:Hoof
in the same article Al Reader said copper, nickle and brass were all used in 1959.


Thanks seboomook... when I was cleaning it during the bow restoration I didnt think it was aluminium...It seemed a bit too heavy. Actually I think I might have a Brass one in a Kodiak Special i have as crazy as that sounds. I have serveral ones with Copper and this one is not the same metal IMHO...
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