Traditional ????

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Curve1
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Traditional ????

Post by Curve1 » Fri Feb 19, 2010 1:10 pm

This post is not meant to be an argumentive thread...just some historical findings.
I've been shooting recurves and a few longbows since 1974, of course there's a lot of folks been involved in archery for a lot longer than I. Just some interesting comments I've heard in recent years among trad-shooters.... like, that metal riser bow aint traditional, ect..
I remember shooting a few metal riser bows here and there back in the 70's and 80's. In 74 when me and my brothers and Dad got into archery most folks were using rests, and a lot of them were using sights. We used aluminum and wood arrows, I think I seen a few Micro-flight arrows around also.
But what I didn't know until recently ....thanks to some folks that have been involved in archery longer than I, is that metal riser bows have been around since the 50's. Aluminum arrows since the 40's [marketed], I believe they were being tried and tested in the 30's. The working limb recurve was not around [fiber-glass] until the late 40's . Dont be surprised if I may not be totally accurate, but, I believe my info is close.
Anyway, I've seen a lot of guys that have gotten into trad in the last 15 years or so that make statements that are inaccurate. When someone says..." that's not traditional ", well, how traditional are you talking about? Most of the bows we shoot now are fiberglass laminated, something they didn't have in the 20's and 30's. Like I said , this is just an observation and not anything meant to start an argument. I look at the American Indian....he improvised with the best and most practical thing that he had available.
I'm one of those that didn't know I was trad when I started in archery. I have nothing against compounds or any other method of archery but I prefer the recurve simply because it works good for me. But , technically I consider a bow any of them that you pull with your arms and hands without any let-off. I didn't know as much about the history of modern Archery as I should have untill here recently...though I'm still learning, it's just something that's interesting to me.
Anyway happy shootin..with what ever you choose to use, and thanks to those folks like George Stout that have contributed a lot of interesting info about the history of Archery.. God bless.

Dan in MI
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Re: Traditional ????

Post by Dan in MI » Fri Feb 19, 2010 2:43 pm

You have stumbled onto the conundrum anyone that has shot stickbows for more than 10-15 years know all too well.

There is nothing new under the sun. Just better materials to make the old ideas work as intended.
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Re: Traditional ????

Post by Grant Young » Fri Feb 19, 2010 3:05 pm

What Dan said, in spades! Traditional is a label in the instances you're talking about but to me it means an attitude wherein "how" means more than "how many." I pay little attention to it. It seems like just yesterday that I called my equipment "conventional." My favorite bow is forty-one years old, I shoot aluminum because I like them best, and I shoot the same heads I shot when I was a kid. I still feel like I'm on the "cutting edge" lol. And you are right- there is a lot of misinformation around and most is mostly hearsay and the intentions are mostly good. Most of the guys I spend time with prefer hunting to talking. Grant

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bowhunterfrompast
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Re: Traditional ????

Post by bowhunterfrompast » Fri Feb 19, 2010 4:21 pm

I believe the word "Traditional" was coined, to establish the different classes in competitive archery, to separate differences in equipment. The only times I've ever heard "Traditional" used, were at shoots, forums, any discussion that talked about the differences. And of course it has carried over into Traditional Clubs and websites, these are gathering places for, birds of the same feather, flock together.

It is a mind set, but the rub to some individuals is they feel threatened by this separation. So they have to question, is it really traditional because :rolf: .

Hopefully we can educate many with the "History of Archery".
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TimberlineX
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Re: Traditional ????

Post by TimberlineX » Fri Feb 19, 2010 4:38 pm

Curve1, interesting point.

Like you, I’ve been around long enough in archery to see the emergence of a whole new breed of traditional bowhunter in the last three decades. That’s been fun, but it’s also been a bit curious at times as some in those ranks have attempted to completely re-define what “traditional” means, and too often seemed to ignore key parts of actual traditional-bow history to craft that new definition.

Let’s look at the history of the takedown hunting recurve as an example.

An interesting thing happened to high-end takedown hunting recurves in about 1970. Up to that point, the design of such bows had been progressing along very well. Two-piece takedown schemes that parted in the middle of the recurve had been tried and mostly rejected. Three-piece configurations, made up of a central riser with two separate limbs, had risen to prominence. The first of those TD risers were made of laminated wood. But by the late 1960s, the most progressive of the recurve manufacturers had nearly all begun to utilize metal, rather that wood, for their recurve takedown risers. Metal was stronger and stiffer, and allowed for more centershot, smaller grips and more dramatic contours, all with less riser bulk. Leading recurve manufacturers like Bear, Wing, Hoyt, Groves, Carroll and even Black Widow had all moved to metal risers for their very best takedown hunting recurves. Then a bomb dropped.

That bomb was the compound bow, and it forever changed the hunting-bow landscape. It also seemingly blasted recurve bow-making back to the Stone Age, and much of the emerging recurve technology was lost. Chief among those losses was the metal takedown riser.

Then, strangely enough, when traditional hunting bows finally re-emerged in the 1980s, a brand-new image of the takedown hunting recurve climbed out of the rubble. That new image once again featured a wood-laminated riser, primarily because such risers were easier to make in small wood-working shops. It was those small shops and their gifted craftsman that fueled the reemergence of traditional hunting recurves and longbows during that period.

That’s historical fact. Modern three-piece takedown recurve hunting bows began with wood-laminated risers in the 1960s, were progressing rapidly to superior metal risers when they had the rug was jerked out from beneath them by the compound bow in the 1970s and then reemerged once again sporting wood-laminated risers in the 1980s. In the dust and confusion, much of that advanced metal-riser technology seemed lost.

Today, however, a few are reaching backward to jump significantly forward with recurve hunting bow design. They’re re-inventing the metal takedown riser for hunting recurves. It’s not new. It’s traditional!

Prime examples of that include the 3Rivers Dalaa, along with the hunting takedowns of TradTech, Butcher, Hoyt and others. Whether you like the performance of these “new” bows or you prefer the rich look and feel of a wood riser, metal-riser hunting takedowns are very much traditional according to the History of Archery, which is what this forum is all about.

If you’ve been around for a while, there is little that is more curious in life than any group that is essentially born-again but claims to be the instigators and keepers of the original movement.
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bowhunterfrompast
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Re: Traditional ????

Post by bowhunterfrompast » Fri Feb 19, 2010 5:02 pm

Bill...One of many, very well stated.
Last edited by bowhunterfrompast on Fri Feb 19, 2010 5:05 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Traditional ????

Post by Greywolf » Fri Feb 19, 2010 5:03 pm

Change the name from Traditional to Historical
Some feel that it gets way back to chewing the tree down with your teeth, scraping the bow to shape with sharp edged rocks, and strings made of intestines of a animal to be "Traditional"

To me? single string! Yep that bout covers it. Now Traditionally, I'll hunt with whatever gets me to the camp, rifle, shotgun, handgun, BP, recurve, longbow, compound and Traditionally I do most of the cooking too.... :rolf:

Golly I love this Traditional stuff.
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Curve1
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Re: Traditional ????

Post by Curve1 » Fri Feb 19, 2010 6:40 pm

Timberlinex, my feelings exactly. Well said.

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Re: Traditional ????

Post by reddogge » Fri Feb 19, 2010 10:57 pm

If you’ve been around for a while, there is little that is more curious in life than any group that is essentially born-again but claims to be the instigators and keepers of the original movement.
Great line Bill.

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Wade Phillips
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Re: Traditional ????

Post by Wade Phillips » Sat Feb 20, 2010 1:25 am

Curve1 wrote:This post is not meant to be an argumentive thread...just some historical findings...
Unlike some other forums on other sites, this forum is about Archery History, that is exactly why most of us are here.

Historically, these are a few accurate facts to keep in mind…

1. Metal handled bows with wooden limbs date back the 1870s, over 130 years ago.

2. Many US Patents were granted for metal handle bows from the 1870s to the 1940s.

3. Metal arrows were marketed long before the 1940s and advertisements in national archery publications clearly prove this.

There really hasn't been much of anything that is truly new in archery in most of our lifetimes, and many of us are Social Security age and drawing our pensions.

Speaking of the term "Traditional Archery" perhaps we should be looking for the earliest historical reference to "Traditional Archery".

I have been in archery since 1958, and the term "Traditional Archery" was not in use then.

Before the year 1980, I am not aware of the usage of the term "Traditional Archery", and it meaning what it means today, whatever that might to mean to anyone.

“The Longbow Shooters Digest” Vol. I, No. 5, circa 1980, is the earliest reference I’ve happened to notice that used the term “Traditional Archery”, and I have every issue of every major national archery periodical dating back to before 1920.

Likely there may be earlier references to “Traditional Archery”, I really haven’t spent any time searching for them. If someone knows of an earlier reference, I'm certain we would like to hear that date and publication.

I usually refer to my 50 year old hunting tackle as vintage, old-time or by its exact date.

When you think about it, the 1980 label "Traditional", being used for a 1960 bow, somehow doesn’t seem appropriate.
Last edited by Wade Phillips on Sat Feb 20, 2010 8:56 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Traditional ????

Post by bowdoc » Sat Feb 20, 2010 8:48 am

Traditional is a new archery word as Wade mentioned used to divide us and oh lets just say some other folks who maybe use a bit different type devise to move arrows down range(like something with a wheel wheels or cam).Those folks are the folks who or whom gave us the Traditional Archer name IMO.Thank you for that one folks.Sure sounds better then being called a pounder shooter thats the bowdoc word for the non traditional guy or gal who owns some arrows....Pounder shooter sounds to me like some over weight dude or dude-et wearing 500.00 worth of new wool camo shotgunning a 16 oz beer beside the fire standing up and yelling Yeah Baby I'am a pounder shooter....Marketing sales and sevice of archery products comes into play on trad and or compound.
Are you asking about traditional archery or asking about what we think of the not so new medal handle bows ? or comments ? made by someone ? The only reason I ask is because your thread started with traditional ???? and this post is not meant to be an argumentive thread ??? did you think someone here was going to over react to your post ? we do not freak out on the history and collecter forums because we're all traditional collecters and fairly mellow ................ bd

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Re: Traditional ????

Post by KODIAK » Sat Feb 20, 2010 12:06 pm

"Traditional" has never bugged me in the least, I guess it's probably because I shot compounds for 20 years before I even picked up a stick.

To me it's an appropriate word used to differentiate between compounds and stickbows...and some sort of nomenclature is in order IMO. Sure, some guys can go overboard with the whole notion of romanticizing '"trad", but if it makes 'em happy I'm all for it.

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Tony Wallace
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Re: Traditional ????

Post by Tony Wallace » Sat Feb 20, 2010 4:41 pm

The History of Archery has plenty of room for the History of Late 20th Century Accessories That Can Be Attached to Your Bow, if that really floats your boat. It is always fun to look at some of the whacky stuff people came up with.

The "History of Debating What Traditional Means To Me" is not much fun, but hey, watching a dog chase its tail does pass the time on a slow news day.

Let's see some pictures of those kookie but loveable Post-Modern Trad gizmos!

PS - The advance of technology had many dead ends, but it did bring us Loctite-420.

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